@btmetz By the way how much did you pay for downloading PP designs of shredderand extruder?
How much royalty do you pay dave for each sale you make?
@btmetz do you think Dave hasn’t got to earn and eat? Don’t you think he can ask the same from all of us? Should the eidhoven team stop sharing all the research and design unless you pay them? Do you even what you are saying?
I freely give away the PP blueprints, but my personal new frame design I will not release. It cost me a LOT of money to design my shredder motor frame and it is still a ongoing process. Mainly because I had to build something that looked professional and able to be assembled in my shop with basic hand tools.
Some guy the other day contacts me and flat out demanded I give him my particular frame blueprints layout drawings etc.
Are the existing blueprints not good enough for them? That is how I built the machines based on Daves designs until I developed a new frame.
So, no… I gotta earn and eat too.
I can’t agree more; when I came here 2 years ago or so I had the same enthusiasm 
PP is a one way road in such matters, aka ‘go and contribute; build our things and pay’ ; no matter your competence, facets, resources and good intentions it’s going nowhere
I’ve been involved in open source for many years, in various areas and across several different disciplines, and without fail, where products are sold that are based on open source community designs, it inevitably ends up the same. There are always vendors that do not want to share their derivative designs and do not want to contribute to the wider goals of the community.
Such actions are completely in contravention of the original license (assuming that the license states that any derivative works are also released under the same terms) and whilst there is no enforceable copyright laws applicable (actually there are, but let’s face it they are not really commercially enforceable) there’s no risk of prosecution or fines. There is no recourse. It is a zero risk activity for people who want to do this. They shamelessly earn money from other people’s work.
Where people profit from such designs without contributing in ANY manner whatsoever, it is basically taking advantage of the project and putting it at a disadvantage. It takes revenue away from those vendors that do contribute, it prevents the community from being able to take advantage of such developments in their own projects, it hampers project progress. Its unethical and it’s not in the spirit of open source.
Penalising / banning vendors is not the solution as it does have a wider impact to the spread of the project itself, similarly forcing vendors to upload designs is very hard to police and introduces additional work, which again takes people away from doing other more beneficial work.
It is much better to take a positive approach and focus on those vendors that DO contribute, for example by having some kind of awards / rewards / achievements that can be earned / won / awarded for positive community contributions.
In essence Precious Plastics is an ethical endeavor, and so it should reward those that act ethically, not just in regards to the plastics problem, but also in regards to open source and community support. The knock on effect is that those vendors that display such rewards will be viewed with a level of trust, which in turn drives more business to them.
Take this to another level and have some kind of annual community excellence awards and these badges of honor also start to drive community contributions. In this way, what is good for business is also good for the project as a whole.
/DM
@davehakkens, well, i guess it’s another sad day for contributors when it comes to simple things like values, privacy, democracy. We’ve been always wondering why we have pay taxes to the establishment/authorities… for this results; no offence; it’s just f** weird why every other project has protocols just not PP Eindhoven.
@sharma-sagar, yeah, may be we can proceed with the topic you already had on mind. after sleeping about; you’re quite right. having long-term plans for PP I am also worried where this boat is actually going – or what we ‘contribute’ to. Often we feel it’s like an abandoned cult/prestige project; but ok; just our opinion – and some others on social media.
can someone from Eindhoven confirm there are no measures to basically protect, promote project’s own values ? I am just asking from an investor & contributor point of view
thanks in advance.
ok; i guess we’re on our own and a badge in the product pictures should do fine for now; ‘open source’ , drawings are good but component sources in top would be top notch but that’s all still far from just adding in the bazar another custom field ‘open source’ as it’s done for ‘according to the drawings’. so this could be simple and effective tomorrow morning, in less than 5 minutes
case is closed for me now , whilst at it, eventually the new designers of the new bazar can add implementations of a green policy.
thanks
For the machines, I would think that PPHQ would want to know what is being sold on the Bazar, for safety and effectiveness at least. Requiring a posted design description should be a fair requirement or if applicable the list of changes from the standard design.
For the product vendors, adding a “how I made this” summary to the product description should not be a hard requirement to meet.
I wonder how many of the vendors ever posted content in the forum.
what do the OG @davehakkens and @xxxolivierxxx think about this?
@plastichub yeah something like a Original Contributor type thing. But Ithink if the decisions is left upto them most people wouldnt make their design open source but will still use this platform. So I think PP HQ needs to take a tough stand to enforce this, we may lose a couple of makers but this will benefit the PP community and the whole cause of plastic recycling in the long run.
for this you would need an audience doing exactly this first like with bio / organic food; people would consider it if there would be a sticker on it.
@plastichub the easiest way to enforce this would be to ask the seller on the bazars to first upload their designs and then approve their listing. I dont see any harm in that.
@s2019, @sharma-sagar: yeah, good question. I have no glue about all this and I know this discussion could go quickly sideways. Let’s give Eindhoven some time, wait and see. I have no resources to cover this but in short; we should follow Dave’s initial thoughts and promote the open-source spirit, in whatever way. No doubt about for some it’s a quick way to earn some extra cash; it’s ok until 20000 people want to get on the same bus and do iterations but nothing in return. Some are better equipped and can actually ADD value; I just would like to see what they added…
As last resort, I will hurry with my expose on PP as one field study on global scale and dedicate an article for Hackernews in hope to get some more input for free. At the end it’s easy: a sticker, nothing more, so people can vouch on the spirit rather than on people cashing in just… Patents (30K) are useless if you can’t defend them (50k), btw.
thanks guys, really.
i think design and plans of all the stuff should be mandatorily open-source and only the actual products and machines should be sold not the plans. Coz this whole forum wouldnt exist if Dave had put up a paywall for his machines. Heck you dont even need to sign up to download plans.
and honestly I dont mind people making money off the plans but then just take your business elsewhere. This is an open-source forum. What part of OPEN-SOURCE do people not understand?
I was about to start a topic about the same issue titled “Is Precious Plastic still Open-source?” good thing someone else is also interested in it.
I reason why I wanted to start a topic about this is because I see few makers on the bazaar selling machines which are clearly iterations of the Precious Platic machines ( which others are totally intereseted in) without releasing the plans for others who maybe live in far away countries and cannot afford the high European prices and shipping charges and would save couples of hundred euros by making on their own or locally. I think its a disservice to the PP communities hard-work of the past 3-4 years by using their platform to sell machines, the basis of which platform is open-source. They use the excuse that they have not compiled the plans or that they are testing stuff and that things may change in the future but I think its just an excuse to get away because these machines are lasercut which famously need actual designs to cut stuff.Also they can put a disclamer like the one on Thingiverse that the user should implement on plans on their own risk coz the maker is still figuring out stuff. Also I saw someone selling plans, actual 3D plans, I mean how could they?!?
I think Dave and others at PP shoud look into this and make putting plans of things mandatory before adding an entry to sell stuff on PP Bazar
I think, unlike software, literature, or art designs, for functional mechanical designs unless you go through the patent process, once you put it in the public domain by posting a design description, it is open source no?
Just for reference,
https://copyleft.org/guide/comprehensive-gpl-guidech13.html#x16-11800012.2